What batteries are you using?

Ok is that all it will go is 4-5psi isn't much, so your using the 15 lifepo4 batteries at 20ah.

At 5psi your spinning the turbo to around 50k rpm's which maxes out most direct drive electric motors of this size. You could easily gear it up 2:1 to make it double that speed to 100k rpm and achieve around 26psi of boost based on a GT35s compressor map.

That would mean for me a 100ah battery should be plenty for what I want to do.

My car runs 30 - 35psi of boost to get the 550 hp now so i need to get up there. So running 60 -80ah should be all I need to get to the 70 - 100k rpm i need to reach that.

Does that math make sense or is it flawed?

I will stick with turbos because I know them well.

I'm gonna run all motors at 12v so it will work with my cars system.

So... saying that I could get 1 lifepo4 battery at 100ah or 2 LPO batterys at 65ah a piece. I haven't taken into account the fact that you are running 4x the voltage i will, but all of the motors i have reviewed will spin the rpm I need at 12v, so i'm not to worried about that.
 
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No it dont work like that unfortunatly.. your ESC and motor will play big part in you set up.. and I can't just gear up the turbo because the motor will get more load and we cant just say 1:2 = x2
My motor is rated to 70k rpm and I had between 40k-50k rpm only. I almost max out my ESC because of a huge voltage drop of my battery.
There's A LOT to talk and I can't really explain all the problems you will encounter.
 
BTW I know you are better with turbo but, for this kind of power, I really think you should go with something like cmoalem and alex set up. And its more affordable then buying 2 ESC for 2 motor. NEVER buy chinese ESC. I recommend MGM ESC. For the motor we all use TP motor but Alex will soon try the MGM lmt motor. They are super power full and I will maybe switch for this too in the futur
 
I did some battery shopping today and this is what I see based on Alibaba pricing:

Yinlong LTO 2.3V 33 Ah prismatic - $25 each
Yinlong LTO 2.3V 30 Ah prismatic - $24 each
Yinlong LTO2.3V 40 Ah cylindrical - $36 each
Lishen LTO 2.5V 16 Ah cylindrical - $10 each
Lishen LTO 2.5V 18 Ah cylindrical - $11 each
A123 LiFePO4 3.2V 20 Ah - pouch - $14 each

The project I am envisioning would draw 250 amps @ 48 volts. My cables will be very short; 1 foot from ESC to motor and 2 -3 feet from battery to ESC. They will be plenty big. I'm not sure how much voltage drop to allow for but let's say required 54V at the battery. I think that Lishen is cheating on the nominal voltage rating so I'll call the Lishens 2.3V. To get the Ah in the 30-40 range these are the options:

30Ah - 24S Yinlong 30 Ah - $576
32 Ah - 24S2P Lishen 16 Ah - $480
33 Ah - 24S Yinlong 33 Ah - $600
36 Ah - 24S2P Lishen 18 Ah - $528
40 Ah - 17S2P - A123 20 Ah - $476
40 Ah - 24S Yinlong 40 Ah - $864

I was thinking that LTO's were the way to go but the A123 LiFePO4 look really attractive if they are really available at $14 each. The A123 would weigh 37 lbs and the Yinlong 40 Ah 63 lbs. The A123's woulld also have a smaller foot print. The only advanatage I can see for LTO is greater number of cycles.

Have I got this right?
 
I should have posted the C ratings. Here they are:

Yinlong LTO 2.3V 33 Ah prismatic - 10C peak discharge, 10C peak charge
Yinlong LTO 2.3V 30 Ah prismatic - 10C peak discharge, 10C peak charge
Yinlong LTO2.3V 40 Ah cylindrical - 10C peak discharge, 6C peak charge
Lishen LTO 2.5V 16 Ah cylindrical - 50C cont. discharge, 100C peak discharge, 15 cont charge, 20 peak charge
Lishen LTO 2.5V 18 Ah cylindrical - 50C cont. discharge, 100C peak discharge, 15 cont charge, 20 peak charge
A123 LiFePO4 3.2V 20 Ah - pouch - 15C cont. discharge, 30 peak discharge, 5C peak charge

As with the nominal voltage it is hard to believe the Lishen C ratings. The Yinlong C ratings seem more typical for an LTO battery. The A123 C ratings are much higher than a typical LiFePO4 battery. However there is some nano technology involved and from what I have read the technology was invented at MIT. A Chinese company acquired the technology when they bought A123.

For the combinations I showed previously any of these batteries should support 250 amps for 15 seconds. Charging rate should also not be an issue.

A word of caution about buying A123 on Alibaba. There are multiple manufacturers advertising A123 20Ah pouches at about the same price point. The $14 price was for USA123 Systems Inc. Wanxiang (the company that bought A123 systems) was in the heading for the listing on Alibaba.
 
GeB was one of the others I found. I looked on their site and they show various A123 batteies with different specs. I would have thought that A123 was trademarked but that may not mean much in China. Probably the same thing for patents.
 
I bought a bunch of a123 cells myself a while ago. They're still sitting around because spot welded tabs and high current don't go together all that well. I've got either 150 or 160 or something (I don't remember) I need to do something with...
 
Did anyone ever build a LiFEPO4 battery for electrified boost? I currently am favorably dispositioned towards an array of headway batteries, mostly because of the cost.

Here is why I think that I like them:
  1. Cheap (~ $5.50 ea used for 8Ah)
  2. Screw connections!
  3. Relatively safe for cars
  4. High charging cycles (long life)
  5. Stability
Is there anything that can compete in this price range? I think I can build a 16 AH 33 volt battery for less than $200 comprised of 4 x 6 array of the headway 38120s. It would be 12S x 2P array folded upon itself perhaps minus a couple cells. It would be 11 cells x 3.2 volt = 35.2 volts. And of course 2 arrays of 11 in parallel to get 8 AH x 2 = 16 AH.
 
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I think LiFePo4 cells would work great - the battery in my car (the 12v battery) is a DIY LiFePo4, 100ah battery and it works much better than the old lead acid battery. MkngStffAwesome on here has done some testing with the headway cells - you may want to try hitting him up.
 
I received the headway LiFePO4 cells, holder, and battery management system today all for less than $200 including shipping. I had my boys test the voltage of each cell with a volt meter and line them all up in order.
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The holder that I got was $15 and holds 24 cells and has solid copper bus bars. It is for replacing a car battery and has 4 cells on series 6 in parallel for 3.2 x 4 = 12.8 volts. If the R&D electric super charger fails, then this will become my12 volt car battery.
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That said, I am planning to configure the batteries so that they are 10 cells series for 32 volts with 2 strings in parallel.

I have to ponder this a bit more and check my positives and negatives. But if my thinking is correct, I should be able to cut the bus bars at the locations marked in yellow in the pic below and get a 32 volt 10S x 2P battery. I just have to be careful as each of these cells can dump 200 Amps, so I will be testing the final configuration hook up with some thin wire that will melt if there is an error before making final hook up with the bus bars.
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I finished the battery build and it delivers the voltage I was seeking. 3.2 x 12 = 38.4 volts. So, now I have a viable power source.

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My motor says it can handle a maximum of 33.6 volts. I was going to run 10S 2P, but decided to fill up the 24 cell holder as I bought a 12S BMS. The voltage during testing today was about 3.25 volts per cell x 12 cells = 39 volts. It would dip to about 33 volts (when pulling 70 amps) during some early runs with hobbywing ESC and castle 1721 motor.
 
With the compressor wheel that you have selected the speed needs to be limited to about 58,000 rpm to limit boost to 7 psi. The motor you have selected has a KV of 2400. That means with 100% throttle and no load the motor will turn at about 79,000 rpm with 33 volt supply. Under load approximately 10% less or 71,000 rpm. So you can't run at 100% throttle if you want to limit boost to 7 psi. If you raise the battery voltage then more throttling is required to limit speed to 58,000. At 58,000 the phase voltage will be the same regardless of what the battery voltage is. Running the battery voltage up will help with voltage drop from the batteries to the ESC but it will not help the motor if the ESC is throttling to control to a constant speed.
 
With the compressor wheel that you have selected the speed needs to be limited to about 58,000 rpm to limit boost to 7 psi. The motor you have selected has a KV of 2400. That means with 100% throttle and no load the motor will turn at about 79,000 rpm with 33 volt supply. Under load approximately 10% less or 71,000 rpm. So you can't run at 100% throttle if you want to limit boost to 7 psi. If you raise the battery voltage then more throttling is required to limit speed to 58,000. At 58,000 the phase voltage will be the same regardless of what the battery voltage is. Running the battery voltage up will help with voltage drop from the batteries to the ESC but it will not help the motor if the ESC is throttling to control to a constant speed.
Great questions and calculations.

Castle tech service warned me to never run the motor without load, as it would surpass its 90K self destruct RPM limit and the rotor would fly apart. I think that they said the most they ran it on was something like 36 volt power supply, which calculates to 86,400 RPM.

I am still creeping around in the design space trying to figure things out. Lots of trial and error. I have had difficulty getting an extension shaft that stays centered. I have enough damage to my compressor wheel that I may replace it with a billet one like WB did once I have a stable system. Or maybe I will end up with a different volume housing and compressor. Hopefully my new solid coupler that comes in today provides enough stability for some trial runs and experiments until the stainless laser sintered shaft comes in.

True, I established a goal for the project to achieve real boost in the 5-7 PSI. However, I am not necessarily inclined to limit it there. I will take what it can give me within reason. What were your estimates? Something like 11-12 PSI at 80K RPMs is what I was reading off the compressor map at a glance. I am not sure that the motor and ESC could handle that. I think my motor and ESC can do perhaps 300 AMPs for a 10 second burst. It will be interesting to see what the limiter in the system is. It would be great to get 50% more power and torque. That might put me in the 200 horse power / foot pounds or torque realm, which would be a blast in a 2,000 lb car like my Opel GT.

My rationale that my engine can handle more is that I have a relatively low compression engine in the realm of 8.3-8.5:1 with a strong bottom (forged crank, etc). I think I can manage the low end of the curve of the compressor by controlling / programming when the motor turns on. My engine management system (Holley Terminator X) is fully programmable, so I can just dial back the timing as a function of boost to stay away from pre detonation. Also, I am building a 2.4 liter stroker engine to replace the 2.0 liter in my car now. Waiting on getting the crank back from the machine shop.

If I end up making more boost, I am guessing / hypothesizing that heat will be the problem to manage. 1) heat in the motor, 2) heat in the ESC that is why I bought one with lots of cooling), and 3) heat in the air charge, 4) heat in engine. If I can make more boost and the support infrastructure (battery, ESC, motor) can handle it, I’ll add an intercooler to remove some of the heat from the charge.

Are you sensing that I am playing around with a compressor that is took big for my engine at 82mm diameter? Perhaps so and you are seeing how it will play out before I get there. If things don’t work out, I could migrate down to a 56 mm compressor. Honestly, I stared at a lot of compressor charts and eventually finally ordered a turbo off eBay, as at $100 price point, I was keen to start hands on learning. In retrospect, perhaps the GT 2056 is a better match. Is that what you are thinking? I think you had another name for it perhaps a T3 with certain trim. When looking at compressor maps. I did not quite understand the principles to consider when translating to an e-turbo. What you are saying makes sense (selecting a compressor that is optimized code a particular max RPM). We seem to be using a different part of the compressor curve (no 100K+ RPMs) compared to most conventional turbo systems, so it is sort of hard to translate.
 
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Here is the design process for a RC airplane:

1) decide what propeller to run based on what plane you have

2) pick a motor that matches the operating window for the propeller

3) pick an ESC what will handle what the motor will demand

4) pick a battery pack

It's the same for an electric supercharger except that step one is pick a compressor. To pick the compressor you have to understand the flow characteristics of your engine and how much boost you want. I would go for the maximum boost the engine can stand. I am unfamiliar with the Opel engine so really can't help say what the maximum boost is. I would look to what other have experienced adding a turbocharger to that engine. If you can decide on a maximum boost for your engine, I can help with the modeling to establish air flow which then allows a compressor selection.
 
I'm really eager to see how those cells work out - please keep us posted. My own experience tells me that until you put the compressor on the engine, you won't know how fast the motor will actually turn - not one motor I've tried has been able to hit it's rated kv in actual use, though some were closer than others. I'd start with testing with the compressor wide open - that'll put the heaviest load on it and limit the rpm to a lower level than it'll likely be on your engine. Just my two cents.
 
The KVs on BLDC motors are generally based on "no load". There will always be some droop when load is placed on the motor. The equation of interest is:

Back EMF = Motor Phase EMF - amps * motor internal resistance

EMF is basically voltage

Back EMF opposes the motor phase EMF and that's why motor will reach a steady state speed when started

With the thottle at 100% the Motor Phase EMF will be the battery voltage minus the voltage drop to get to the motor. The rpm of the motor is proportional to the back emf. Think of the motor phase voltage as the commanded RPM. At no load, the motor draws few amps and the actual speed (back emf) is pretty close to the commanded speed (phase voltage).

Now lets look at a couple of NeuMotors. Both with KV around 700. The torque constants are very close. The 3020 has an internal resistance of 0.002 ohms and the 2220 has an internal resistance of 0.005 ohms. Lets say we can get 50 volts to the motor windings. At no load the back emf is close to 50 volts and the motor is spinning near 35,000 rpm. Now we put a 300 amp load on each motor. The back emf for the 3020 is now 50- 300 * .002 = 49.4 and the motor is running at 35,000 * 49.4/50 = 34580. The 2220 motor has a back emf of 50 - 300 *0.005 = 48.5 volts and it runs at 35,000 * 48.5/50 = 33950 rpm. Both these motors have fairly low internal resistances. Higher resistance motors will have more droop.

But the bigger thing that happens when load goes up is you pay the price for all the resistances in the system. The wires to the ESC have resistance, the ESC has internal resistance, the wires to the motor have resistance so even though you are at full throttle the motor phase voltage is not the same as battery voltage.

Both of the above account for why the NeuMotor website says to expect a 10-15% reduction in actual speed vs KV * battery voltage.

The equation also explains what happens when you stall a motor at full throttle (you crashed your RC airplane nose first into the ground):

Amps = (Motor Phase - Back EMF) / motor internal resistance. Because the motor is not turning the back emf is zero and the amps go very high, very fast.
 
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