Flip flopping E-Turbo Project

More pictures of the final mockup.. now i just have to get it made, which will probably take ages because im sure they will want quite a bit of money to make this up.

FYI the fan shroud will always be 3d printed but not in this colour.

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nice ... so instead of a watercooling jacket for the motor a dual fan setup!
One pusher plus one puller fan?
(Have you considered measuring underhood airtemps with hood closed and driving around? Is very well dependent on "position" and can get quite hot!)
 
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Well cooling is an interesting topic..

Taking WB Project as an example (because he is the only one with a similar setup) He is pulling some 6Kw of power lets say 90-95% efficiency gives you 600-300watts lost to heat .. which to me seems like a lot ...
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However he claims that without water cooling OR Active cooling ( like here ) that his motor doesn't get very hot at all.. This maybe the case because the on time of the motor is very short and therefore it doesn't get very hot due to it's descent thermal mass and the following long off time to dissipate the heat.

Im also aware that demagnetization can start happening around 80c (depending on a lot of factors) so it's a good idea to keep it cool.

This has 2 high speed ball bearing 60mm fans that both push in and there is a slot on the other side to let the air come out...
Also the motor mounting plate will have a slot milled into it to allow the motors vent holes to actually work.. Because if it's mounted against a flat plate the vent holes are actually blocked.

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As for engine under bonnet temps.. i can't be totally sure of that, i need to wait for summer to really kick in.. But i have already removed the "Go Slow Strips" (weather strip that seals the bonnet to the car)
I recently checked the temp of the battery and that was 45c so that might be an indication of the under the hood temps at the time (ish)

Will this work?....
i can't be sure obviously but it's not a huge major if it doesn't because i can just remove the fan shroud... I will have to test it all and see how i go.. I also have a air cooled ESC so want air cooling to work.... getting to the actual point where cooling could be a concern seems like it will be years off lol.
 
That looks really interesting. Any chance of ducting in fresh air to the motor? What I'm not really clear on is the flow of intake air - it's coming from that conical air filter housing, through the MAF and then somehow into the e-turbo? It looks like it's just going straight down through that blue silicone tube. I'm sure it's not, but it's hard to make out.

Packaging in some cars can be a PITA. If you end up with issues, keep in mind you can put that thing anywhere. A meter or two of tubing from the e-turbo to the TB will have no effect on lag or power - I promise you. On a Mustang forum I've been on since 1999, one guy wanted to intercool his Kenne Bell blower, which in the stock configuration had only a couple of inches to the intake. In order to intercool it, he literally had to add 3 meters of tubing - made zero difference in terms of boost lag and there was no power loss.
 
The MAF is not connected up as that is not a part of what i was mocking up. I was mocking up what was needed to be machined .. but it will come around the back and connect up.. But just before the Turbo inlet but after the MAF i need connect the crank case breather because where it is now will result in the crank case being pressurized when on boost, which i dont want to do...
In saying that i see that the following KIT they didn't move it to before the SC ( blue tube )

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This is like the 3rd place i have tried to fit the E- Turbo in .. This is the most realistic position to fit it in but doesn't allow for a IC.. There are two commercially available SC KITS for my car one uses a Root type SC the other a Rotex ..


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Both dont come with IC's and run more boost than i think i will get SO i probably dont have to too worry to much. In saying that im 1000% sure my inlet air temps will be lower thanks to my REAL cold air ram

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Also if i went IC that would increase the cost and it has already take 2 years to get to where i am now.. and i'm sure i have a few more years to go thanks to my tiny budget.


O also i could take some cold air from after the air filter but before the maf and send that to the motor fans, but like i said previously i probably dont have to worry about that for a few more years lol.
 
I hear you. I didn't intercool any of my positive displacement setups until about 5 years ago - and I've been making those since the 90's. Sometimes just getting things going is the better option. Since we're all running relatively low boost (albeit with what I consider incredible gains - I'm seeing twice as much hp (or more) per psi with the electric setup as I saw with the Whipple), we probably don't even need cooling to get to max engine timing. I most likely won't because of my low compression - 8.8:1.
 
I had a car running a roots type SC running 10 PSI @ 8.9cr and that 150% needed and had a IC....
In theory we should make more power with cooler air if we can IC. BUT at the same time IC's cause PSI drops and we find it hard to make boost in the first place. So it might not be that helpful in the end ..

My first E-turbo design had a Front mount IC and 90volts .. but was dumped due to the cost.

My second version had a Air water IC which i still think is the way go if you are already watercooling the Motor and ESC anyway... Also running water pipes is simpler than air pipes... Also the mostly "off" situation with E-turbo does seem to go well with a Air water setup.
 
I agree - I really don't think we'll be needing much in the way of intercooling any time soon. And frankly, I think my initial idea of watercooling is largely unnecessary. Unless you're doing a setup in the engine bay itself, where it's probably a good idea (or at least forced air of some sort). I've been watching Richard Holdener's youtube videos and he recently did a Ford mod motor vs LS motor and a Kenne Bell blower - that highlighted how inefficient PD blowers really are (the blowers I have by far the most experience with). On a 500hp motor with 7.2 psi, he should've made 745hp, but in reality only made 663 hp - which is still 22.6 hp/psi; but remember - we saw 32 hp/psi on a 500 hp motor - but AT THE WHEELS. That's pretty huge - and slightly more efficient than it should be (most likely overcoming the bottleneck - which was the throttle body). And as you turn up the boost, things get worse - at the wheels, I usually saw about 15-17hp per psi (which correlates pretty much perfectly which my converter/PG loss of 24%).

Here's the video:

In my case, to hit 600 rwhp (~800 fwhP) we only need a bit over 7 psi. There's not much benefit in cooling a 7psi charge from an efficient blower. Meth injection would be an easier/more viable option at that point.
 
i haven't heard back about getting my stuff machined. i will hassle them in a few days time ( feb )
In the mean time i have been looking into UI's again and i know i said i was going to use the same ui as my TEC controller . But i think i'll do a new one purely based a nextion 7 inch display and Gauges.

2 main gauges will be battery pack voltage and Boost ( yes will require a 2 bar sensor to be added )

Minor gauges.
12v
Engine rpm
Throttle Position
E-Tubro Power

I would also like to display the status of the "switches" .. like if charging is happening or not.

This will require custom arduino and Nextion code obviously and is alot of work but what ever ( yes i intend to allow people to use it )



In theory once i get the thing machined i can get it running, though on 12v ( yes this wont make boost ) but can do the rest while i save for the batteries. In saying that i'll need to save for the screen too.
 
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Something ruffly like this. The coloured part will increased and decrease. But animating that is a huge job and i want to get the screen first cos i know there can be a big difference between theory and reality.

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I will probably also add a wave for page to display this data too ( graphs ). That is also a bunch of work so will need to wait on the screen.
 
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The machining for this E-turbo is currently with the machinist. It should be done this month. He suggested i make some changes to make it cheaper for him to make And to index the parts together.

After that i will continue to buy the 6ah LTO's which have proven better than i could have hopped for.

I do have a Flier 12s ESC that i was hoping to use for this build despite others having killed them...( i bought it before Alex started his project ) I will use this for testing but in true flipflop form. im now thinking i'll swap to a VESC 75/300 ESC. Because..

It has limits like current, temperature / Erpm. These should prevent it from catastrophic failure. Having the Flier fail and catch fire seems like a real possibility. This would probably result in significant damage to the car, which would make me sad :(

Assuming that PID mode works it would enable me to run the motor at the same speed no matter the battery voltage.. With a normal setup as the battery voltage drops so would motor rpm an thus boost.. This would be rather annoying to have boost drop off.. Especially when you consider i have a small 6ah pack that im intending on using all of it all the time. In Arduino I was intending on monitoring the pack voltage and slowly increasing the duty to the dumb flier esc to replicate this but i have had problems doing just this in the past.

The Limits and PID should enable the fastest possible start up with out over loading the ESC or motor .. something the dumb Flier ESC has no control over.. To compensate for this lack of features.. In Arduino i've allowed for a Rump up time to slowly apply the power.. and also an attempt to estimate motors rpm when no power is applied to it to know how much power to reapply when taking the power off for like changing gears.
This of course is less than ideal and just estimating.

I currently have a TP 4070CM (1400KV) But will probably go to a 4080cm 2000KV... In theory 1400KV should be enough but not if i want to counter a battery as it gets flat and because the vesc only allows 95% power applied. Having more RPM than i need with a full battery should allow me to use this head room when the battery is flatter. Also it Should allow for faster spin ups that i have covered in this video on how BLhei should work ( not how it does )


As for making videos on this once i get my parts machined up i feel like i have something to make a video about other than some idea's lol
 
I have performed some alternator testing on my car to see what would happen if i tried to pull 30-60amps from the battery.

The following numbers are from the main ground wire.. There is a secondary wire too which has some current following through it but not a lot and it doesn't seem to change much when i start pulling current from the battery.

Also the following numbers seem to be rather unrepeatable but still interesting.


Battery voltage and AMPs going to the battery @ Idle 700rpm

14.4 V 6-7amps (no load)
13.5v ish 30-32 amps
11.85v ish 46amps


For another test i rev'd the car to about 2000 rpm.
This took the voltage form 13.5 to 14v while providing 30amps

In these examples the lights, radiator and stereo (a descent one) is off. So i need to allow for that.. So i dont think pulling 30amps dedicated to charging the batteries is practical
 
On offroad trucks where people like to run e.g. some a led bar and fridge e.g. a "second thought" re alternator and battery system already is good practice!

If they want to run a whinch as well then it is not only "good practice", but a dual battery system inevitable.

For off road trucks the aftermarket (and forums) usually have altermator upgrades available.

For smaller vehicles I would check what the high power stereo fans do!
(they do have solutions to run 1000W and more consumers!)
 
The interesting thing which failed to say was...

I was expecting the car to try and maintain 14.4v, and as i increased the load the current would be increased to counter this and maintain the 14.4v ... However this was not the case... It seems that the lower the battery voltage resulted in more current being delivered.. this means that it's not possible to pull larger amounts of current at idle and still have 14.4v. And therefore the max current you can pull is based on what voltage your happy to run at....

Now knowing this and deciding that say we want to maintain say 13.5v (30amps is) then we'd need to vary the current sent to the e-turbos batteries because this "30amps" is for the entire car and other electrical loads will vary , stereo, lights, wipers .. windows.. taking up a portion of this... Also it seems that more current can be pulled the higher the engine rpm.

So... i feel like i need to do just that and build my own method to vary the current sent to the e-turbos batteries to maintain 13.5v . Probably by pwming it.
 
to give you guys an idea it might be worth using a water to air intercooler built into the intake manifold on your engine, a guy not far from me is using on with over 30psi of boost on a diesel with good temps, its not uncommon to see 50o with the stock or not great air-air front mount intercooler, this also shouldnt cause as many issues as a traditional air-air
 
When I read this, I am faced with something too, we are struggling with. We are thinking of using a 48v/100w alternator and an inverter to charge the 12v battery for the rest of the car. Technically this is it possible. I have an alternator, but it is extra work.

Jos.
 
to give you guys an idea it might be worth using a water to air intercooler built into the intake manifold on your engine, a guy not far from me is using on with over 30psi of boost on a diesel with good temps, its not uncommon to see 50o with the stock or not great air-air front mount intercooler, this also shouldnt cause as many issues as a traditional air-air

I have looked into it.. There are two real SC kits i could buy for this car. One is a roots type and the other a rotex .. both dont bother with with a IC.. The higher the boost pressure the more you need a IC.. im talking here probably sub 6psi, which is less than the real SC kits. So i dont think it will do an awful lot... The other issue being is that there will be some drop across the IC and if thats say .5 psi then it takes a lot of electrical power to create that .5 psi and that increases charge time and reduces run time...

There are other draw backs too like it will all take more space and cost more to add one too... Also we need to remember that for 99% of the time the E-turbo will be off.

Ultimately i want something working i can always make it better later.

When I read this, I am faced with something too, we are struggling with. We are thinking of using a 48v/100w alternator and an inverter to charge the 12v battery for the rest of the car. Technically this is it possible. I have an alternator, but it is extra work.

Jos.
yeah i mean adding a second 48v alternator would be ideal if you can fit it in somewhere... For me trying to do that would be difficult and the simpler thing would be to upgrade the 12v one to start with....... At this point i just need to get something going and i can make these kind of plans after the fact.
 
I was on the phone with a friend yesterday and he was asking about the air charge intake temps. I didn't really pay too much attention to them, given the relatively low boost I saw in my tests. But I did go back and look at the logs. The IATs while running were actually cooler than with the electric turbo off. Ray (another friend of mine - the guy who does my dyno testing), mentioned one of the advantages of this system is the lack of a need for charge cooling. With most systems, the compressor gets hot and stays hot. Turbos because they're physically connected to the car's exhaust, and superchargers because they're always spinning. And when a supercharger is always spinning, and dealing with a low volume of air (throttle closed or mostly closed), the air gets heated, even when not in boost. And that warms the compressor. In both cases, when boost is called for, both types of compressors impart their heat into the intake charge. Not so with the electric turbo. If you can keep the volute around ambient temperature, it'll function as a charge cooler itself. Coupled with the fact that you need about half the boost to make equivalent power, it's a win-win.

Conclusion: an intercooler isn't necessary, and in fact, since intercoolers are a restriction, would actually hurt power. If you really are concerned, know that you always have meth injection available as an option. In my case, at the track one of the things I'd try is just putting a bag of ice on the volute. That's an old school trick we used to do back in the day on 5.0 Mustang intake manifolds. And it worked quite well.

As for the alternator, I run a 200 amp, 3G style unit. It really only needs two wires - a power wire and a sense wire. The sense wire provides voltage feedback to the alternator. You can jumper the sense wire to the output stud. But then practical voltage for the car is lower due to cable losses. Or you can jack up the voltage by running the sense wire to the lowest voltage point of your electrical system. Just a thought.

Of course, that won't help much at idle. You can also put a smaller pulley on the alternator at idle, or just get a bigger alternator. Or just have the charging cut out at idle. There are a bunch of options. In my opinion, none of that's a deal breaker. I doubt you'll ever be in boost long enough driving around (or racing on a road course, even) to run the e-turbo batteries down very far.

Another thought - I run a 100ah LiFePo4 car battery now. It's smaller and lighter than the 32 amp hour lead acid battery it replaced, and while a lead acid battery's only got about 50% of its capacity that's usable (voltage drop), about 80% of the LiFePo4's battery is usable. Putting one of those in your car would be a win all-around - I figured I could charge my e-turbo packs 6-8 times between passes at the track before I'd start to be concerned about the car not starting. That's a pessimistic estimate, BTW.
 
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