Flip flopping E-Turbo Project

MkngStffAwesome

MkngStffAwesome

Active member
I'll post where im at .. Im not sure this will ever have an end or actually start but i'll post where im at.

Firstly i Live in New Zealand.. which is a small country and speed limits are relatively low. I currently have a 2006 Suzuki Swift (Manual) which has a 1600cc engine.. It's actually quite good as it is now but the sad thing about it is that, low in the RPM it's rather weak.

I have a friend with the same car and he has "real turbo'd" his car but that has cost him 3 times the purchase price of the car .. sure it goes great and will always be better than an e-turbo But the price is out of the question.. SO an e-turbo would seem to be a good idea since i can do most of it my self and it should offer good bang for that buck.

The swift being a small engine is seemingly ideal to E-tubo because the power requirements will be low, But at the same time size is limited and things like alternator output is tiny so it's all relative.

I have been in the process of e-turboing for a number of years and that has resulted in me chopping and changing over the years as to what i would do. Right now i'm probably not doing the ideal.

MK1

Was to make an ideal system Running on 90ish(22s) volts ( No one should be running 12,24,34,60v ) Using LifePo4 batteries.
I didn't want to run Lipos because my own repeated experience with lipos is they are as bad as they are made out to be on you tube .lol
Buying batteries is always a difficult thing because you don't know if the seller is telling you the truth or not. Most LifePo4 batteries seem to have a constant discharge of 3c So to get 100 Amps you'd need 33ah batteries * 22ish.

I would buy a TD05 with extended tip compressor (GTX3076R GEN 2) .. i did buy this
Considering the size of my engine is 1600cc this is a burst out laughingly large compressor. However it was chosen because i could in theory achieve the results at a low compressor speed. I could not go larger because even this is hard to fit in my engine bay. Also larger ones get crazy expensive.
map.PNG

Based on the BorgWarners excellent tool at 7.5 PSI (1.5) i need to flow 20LBS/ min that is 70,000 RPM


I would buy a TP4070-CM at 1400KV which at 80v is 112,000 RPM ( i did buy this )
I went for 112K RPM because this is the unloaded RPM. This RPM is what you'll get when not compressing any air or spinning the wheel at all. When the motor is trying to compress the air it will be FAR lower than this theoretical number ( it probably wouldn't even get to 70k)

The max rpm for 10 seconds is 75,000 before it explodes so that is ok ( just ) for our target of 70k Also the the max power can be 9kw before overheating.
motor.PNG


The power required to compress 20lbs @ 7.5psi according to borgwarners app with a 1600cc motor at 6800 rpm is. 10.43 HP OR 7.8 KW , which our motor and batteries should be ok with. 7800KW / 80v = 97.5amps


bw1.PNG

This should all work in theory though there are some touch and go parameters.

MK2

After buying the Motor and Compressor and continued research i was scared off with a direct motor shaft to compressor setup. This is because of a number of failed attempts in relation to achieve this by others.. One of the issues is trying to machine the Motors shaft and ensuring that it is machined Perfectly Perfectly True and being able to retain the compressor wheel on. While it is totally possible to machine this perfectly if not it's a disaster and it seems that disaster was pretty common. lol
I also came to the realization that MK! was going to cost a mind blowing amount of money for what is a very cheap car. This is in part because i dont believe i can throw the number of batteries in the boot (trunk) and this car being even remotely legal to dive on the roads here.

So MK2 became all about cost cutting. The biggest problem is the batteries and the cost of them, the storage and charging of them. So I thought to myself lets just bin them all together and Run it off 12v ...12v would create some new problems..

A)@12v 7,800 kw would equal 650 amps..
This is a total joke and so required power had to be reduced (PSI) to a more manageable 400amps or 4,800watts or 6.5ph.. this is good enough for 5psi at 6800rpm.. and it is still possible to provide more boost at lower rpm as power requirements reduce with rpm.

B) Compressor speed was now to slow 12x 1400kv= 16,800rpm. At this point i had already bought this motor.. but even at the highest KV of 3200 x 12 = 38,400rpm is far to far from where were need to be at. SO the only way to get a theoretical speed of 100K plus was to GEAR the motor. This is fine because i already didn't want a direct motor to compressor wheel system anyway. I originally went with a belt drive system but after looking at the numbers, as RPM increase then the torque that could be applied decrease, and as you can bet there are no 70k rpm belts while applying 7hp. I have since moved to metal gears that will be louder and require gear oil but they will work... and i can obviously change the gear ratios.

C) The car would handle the charging like normal but it also meant that when boosting it would also be pulling power from the alternator.

At this point i bought a 3s -16s 400 ESC like ALex had.

The idea wouldn't actually be to power my e-turbo from my tiny tiny 12v lead acid battery but to replace it with Lipo4 ones. The largest i could fit is 100amp ones. which meant the max theoretical current would be 300amps (3600watts) not 400amps.

This is what im in the process of getting made.

p1.PNGp2.PNG

You'll notice that this has place for a second motor :)

MK3

Currently have
3-16s 400 amp ESC
TP4070-CM, 1400KV
TD05 compressor
Housing getting machined

I performed some testing and im very concerned about pulling 300amps and the fire risk that this posses and Alexs blown up ESC too.
Also pulling 300 amps from the same pack that the car is monitoring and the alternator is trying to charge is a questionable idea.

So im almost back where i started except i have bought some parts and obviously need to use them.
So the current idea is to go to 16s with lipos, which is the max the ESC supports this is 60 + ish volts. 60 * 100 = 6KW so thats about what i need even more should be ok form this ESC without explosion's.

I will need to run lipos because LTO and Lifepo4 just doesn't workout no mater how many times i try to make it work.. I will however be under charging the LIPOS and under discharging them and have them in a metal box.

I have actually done a lot with a controller to Run my e-turbo but i also keep chopping and changing with that too.. hes a few pics anywaynex 1.PNGnex 2.PNG
 
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The idea is to run this project on the stock computer.. Changing the computer to an aftermarket one to expensive. Maybe a tune on the stock computer would be ok though.

This means that the car needs to be able to take the extra Boost and air with the stock sensors and not freak-out.

Assuming for a minute that im going for 7.5psi at max rpm ( im actually going for less than that.) But this means that the car needs to accept 50% more air without exceeding and sensor limits.

At a total guess i'd be surprised if there is that kind of heard room. Im particularly interested in MAF sensor voltages. I think i'll need to do some testing to see if there is the available head room. Theoretically it can go up to 5v but in the real world that might be a max of 4.8v

I guess is can drive around at 3400rpm (1/2 redline) and see what the maf voltage is and double that to get the redline voltage and then see if there is much head room. Humm it probably needs to be full throttle at 3400 rpm which will be a lot harder to actually do.


Thoughts guys ?
 
Sorry for the delayed reply - time's been at a premium lately (it's now 6:04 am and I haven't been to sleep yet; I've been putting together my packs and I had some issues until I realized I got a bad balancing board...)

Wow - first of all, I didn't realize that Borg's match bot gives you turbo shaft power - I'm going to have to go play with that. I really like your motor plate - what are you thinking for bearings? FWIW, Powerdyne superchargers used internal belts to drive them - they went over 50,000 rpm and were pretty reliable unless people were power shifting them. They were gilmer type belts. If memory serves, the model I'm thinking of is BD-11; I bet you can still buy replacement belts.

I do have a question - why not use a centrifugal supercharger? They usually use lower RPM to achieve the same boost levels and have very similar efficiencies. The high rpm required by turbos leads to bearing & lubrication issues, and many superchargers come with internally lubed bearings - you don't need to reinvent the wheel making bearings and a plate to locate the impeller precisely. I don't know if you saw it, but there's an Australian company that makes a knock off Vortech type blower that already comes with bearings and a gilmer pulley pre-mounted, and it could easily support your power goals. As long as it stays out of surge (google Vortech compressor maps and look at the map for the Si trim - that's the closest match to the dimensions that blower has), you should be good. And at $625 USD, it's pretty tough to beat. That's what I paid for my impeller alone. Here's the post: https://www.electrifiedboost.com/threads/here-is-the-supercharger-i-would-start-with.20/

If you choose to stay on your current course, I'd love to see the results. This stuff is new to all of us, so who knows - your way might be better than modding centrifugal superchargers.
 
There is no doubt that after the fact i might have been able to do it differently, But at the same time i wanted to make something that i knew would work as apposed to something that might work.

Up until the creation of this forum there was no way to know about another options. I actually started my journey long before i know about your channel or your project

In my particular case i wouldn't beable to use the linked blower because it is simply to large to fit in my car ( my car is small you can't even fit a set of golf clubs in the trunk) and even if i could fit it. its WAY more expensive than the TD05. It would still also require machining and stuff stuff so doesn't achieve much for my particular application, thats not to say it wouldn't be good for someone else's.

As for bearings i have some Ceramic Ball , ball bearing for the compressor side.
 
I know what you mean - I spent days educating myself on things I didn't know - my knowledge of all things brushless is a thousandfold more than when I started. And your reasons for going the way you are are just as valid as any others. In my case, the electric blower I now have is about 50 lbs lighter and about a quarter of the size of the Whipple it replaced (under the hood anyway).

I am VERY curious how your gear driven setup works out. Please keep us informed as you go!
 
I must admit for an incredibly long time i thought yours was geared...
Personally i think geared is where we'll all end up... Because as you increase Motor power you increase it's size and therefore reduce it's ability to spin at high RPMs.. So the answer is to gear it.. This way we can keep the Blower smaller and cheaper.. Also the motor should be cheaper because one that can spin at high rpm and not explode are expensive.
 
Personally, if I was to prognosticate, I think smaller units will be direct drive, but bigger ones will be geared. If my theory on voltage vs. rpm turns out to be correct, then I'd see no reason to gear a unit up to at least 750 hp. But, as I've been saying in a bunch of posts, we won't know for sure until we get there. I have to get mine to at least mid 30k rpm range to be really vaild; but we're close; we're already seeing peaks of 30,000 rpm and averages of about 27-28k.

But the really big bastard I want to build will almost certainly have to be geared. I'll likely start with a Procharger F1-x (or bigger) for that setup.

BTW - any reason you're not considering a Torqamp? (though I know what my answer would be - I want to build my own...lol)
 
O yeah i was kinda meaning beyond what we have now will probably need to be geared.

Torqamp.. Well..........
A Torqamp certainly could get the job done in my case. or at least in theory it can.
For what you get it's very expensive and lacks features it should have. It feels very much like it's a Generation 1 kinda thing.. thats a good start but not where it should be... If i bought one i'd take it apart and finish what they started... I wish they just sold the blower and motor assembly so i could do a proper job of the rest.

It desperately needs a touch screen to display what's going on with it.. i mean the most simple things are missing like.. how charged is the battery .. who knows... It just comes with a switch for full power or nothing.. There is another box that can better integrate with the car but they want even more money for that.

It's very expensive for what you get... im not saying it's a ripoff im just saying it's alot of money for what you get. Locally including postage + taxes is like $4,800NZD for perspective my car cost when i bought it years ago was $7000NZD
Id be better off selling my car and buying a real trubo car for that much money

At the end of the day i think i could do a better "complete" Job for less money and in the process help others to do the same or take it further.
 
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Wow... things really cost a lot more in NZ, huh? The price of living in paradise, I suppose. I'm between Baltimore and DC - a half hour drive in either direction and you stand a very good chance of being shot.

I do think the Torqamp that's out now is a v1 - when I was emailing that guy, he was saying they were working on an improved version. But you're right - heck, even I included a voltmeter, ammeter and thermometer in my dash just to see what's going on.

Oh - I bought the LTD for $400 from the girlfriend of a guy who was going to jail for cocaine possession. She was a bartender, and when I walked in to her place of work she literally said - I'm not making this up: "Thank god it's not going to one of them coloreds." Wow. I'll never forget that. That was about 28 years ago. Now I wouldn't part with it for $30,000.
 
One more thing - I did play around with Borg's matchbot. I used my data as inputs (as closely as I could, anyway). It seems that it's shaft power HP is a little high (going by my ESC datalogs) and a little low going by my dash gauges. So, in short, it's a pretty close approximation. Going by that will get you in the ballpark, and real-world results may be slightly better than expected.
 
Battery time...

Before i start it's important to understand that to drive a NA car that has been E-Bootsed on New Zealand Roads, the car will need to under go a special certification process that will basically make sure that the mods wont get me or anyone else killed. This process costs a reasonable amount of money.
Because of this im having to guess at what i think will get passed and what wont get passed..

What i assume will be difficult to pass will be large amounts of batteries everywhere. For this reason i can't have loose batteries in a plastic box flowing around in the boot (trunk) or in the Passage compartment. So to avoid this potential problem i'd like to have the batteries in the engine bay

Being in the engine bay this means two major things.. Space is limited and the engine bay is hot ish...

Due to the space limitations LTO looks to be out. and due to the heat and other complexities of LIPO's they are out too.

This leaves LifePo4's

My current idea is to replace the current lead acid battery with an new box that would hold Headway 38120hp or A123 AHR32113
14 in series for 50ish volts (max voltage for my ESC) and 8 (4s2p) 14.4v for starting and running the car.. These should all fit in about the same space as the stock battery.

Battery internal resistance and price is the major factors when selecting a battery which is why these two previously mentioned batteries are currently being considered.

20x Headway 38120hp are 8ah and cost 899.91NZD + Tax
1628725832074.png

20x A123 AHR32113 are 4-4.4ah and cost 389.54NZD + Tax
1628725796339.png
Headway's cost almost twice the price but are almost twice the capacity. I dont actually need the capacity and would rather save the extra money IF the A123's are a comparable internal resistance. As far as i can tell they actually have a better resistance than Headways.

I have ordered 4x A123's and a New battery tester so i will test these and see how good they really are... I have had problems buying Fake batteries before so now i test everyone to make sure they are what they say they are.. since this is mean to be a A123 V Headway shoot out i might have to buy some of them too but lets see how these A123's go first.

1628725878349.png
 
I was just looking at a123s - there are some with really high burst currents (120 amps). What sort of pack (cells+voltage) are you looking to build? My LTO pack should be more than safe in the trunk - the heavy duty plastic cases will be strapped to a steel frame that locates them that bolts to the two rear seatbelt body bolts and the rear shock mounts. What if you followed NHRA trunk mounted battery requirements? Here's the rule:

Sec 20, 8:1 BATTERIES
All batteries must be securely mounted; must be of sufficient
capacity to start vehicle at any time. Batteries may not be relocated
into the driver or passenger compartments. Rear firewall of .024-
inch steel or .032-inch aluminum (including package tray) required
when battery is relocated in trunk. In lieu of rear firewall, battery
may be located in a sealed .024-inch steel, .032-inch aluminum, or
NHRA-accepted poly box. If sealed box is used in lieu of rear
firewall, box may not be used to secure battery and must be vented
outside of body. Relocated battery(s) must be fastened to frame or
frame structure with a minimum of two 3/8-inch-diameter bolts.

My primary battery box is .062 aluminum and bolted to the floor with two 3/8 bolts (in the trunk). The cases I'm using are far more robust than the NHRA approved poly boxes. Admittedly, my original setup was a bit sketchy; but was going to go in a steel case. I feel much better about this setup. You could run this NHRA rule by your local authorities and see if they'll accept it. It FAR safer than most OEM mounts.
 
MkngStffAwesome said:
Battery time...

Before i start it's important to understand that to drive a NA car that has been E-Bootsed on New Zealand Roads, the car will need to under go a special certification process that will basically make sure that the mods wont get me or anyone else killed. This process costs a reasonable amount of money.
Because of this im having to guess at what i think will get passed and what wont get passed..

What i assume will be difficult to pass will be large amounts of batteries everywhere. For this reason i can't have loose batteries in a plastic box flowing around in the boot (trunk) or in the Passage compartment. So to avoid this potential problem i'd like to have the batteries in the engine bay
Click to expand...
but people put batteries in the car for their stereo systems all the time. And newer cars now have batteries in the boot as well...
 
FYI there is a difference between A123 ANR26650M1-A AND ANR26650M1-B cells

A cells (Older)

Cell Dimensions (mm) Ø26 x 65
Cell Weight (g) 72
Cell Capacity (nominal/minimum, Ah) 2.3/2.2
Voltage (nominal, V) 3.3
Internal Impedance (1kHz AC typical, mΩ) 8
3A to 3.6V CCCV, 45 min
10A to 3.6V CCCV, 15 min
Maximum Continuous Discharge (A) 70
Maximum Pulse Discharge (10 seconds, A) 120
Cycle Life at 10C Discharge, 100% DOD
Recommended Standard Charge Method
ANR26650 Cell Speci!cations
Recommeded Fast Charge Charge Current
>1,000 cycles


This video backups the 8 milli ohms claim for the A cells so there is a good chance that the 6<ish for the B will also be correct.


B cells (Newer)

Cell Dimensions (mm): Ø26 x 65
Cell Weight (g): 76
Cell Capacity (nominal/minimum, Ah): 2.5/2.4
Voltage (nominal, V): 3.3
Internal Impedance (1kHz AC typical, mΩ): 6
HPPC 10 Sec Discharge Pulse Power 50% SOC: 200 W
Recommended Standard Charge Method: 1C to 3.6V CCCV, 45 min
Recommended Fast Charge Method to 80% SOC: 4C to 3.6V CC, 12 min
Maximum Continuous Discharge (A): 70
Maximum Pulse Discharge (10 seconds, A): 120 A
Cycle Life at 10C Discharge, 100% DOD: >1,000 cycles
Operating Temperature: -30°C to 55°C
Storage Temperature: -40°C to 60°C

At this point i can't imagine me using any thing else besides these cells but i bought the other cells out of curiosity and for peace of mind (if i can prove these are better) The fact that these get used in busses is a good sign.
 
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MkngStffAwesome said:
FYI there is a difference between A123 ANR26650M1-A AND ANR26650M1-B cells

A cells (Older)

Cell Dimensions (mm) Ø26 x 65
Cell Weight (g) 72
Cell Capacity (nominal/minimum, Ah) 2.3/2.2
Voltage (nominal, V) 3.3
Internal Impedance (1kHz AC typical, mΩ) 8
3A to 3.6V CCCV, 45 min
10A to 3.6V CCCV, 15 min
Maximum Continuous Discharge (A) 70
Maximum Pulse Discharge (10 seconds, A) 120
Cycle Life at 10C Discharge, 100% DOD
Recommended Standard Charge Method
ANR26650 Cell Speci!cations
Recommeded Fast Charge Charge Current
>1,000 cycles


This video backups the 8 milli ohms claim for the A cells so there is a good chance that the 6<ish for the B will also be correct.


B cells (Newer)

Cell Dimensions (mm): Ø26 x 65
Cell Weight (g): 76
Cell Capacity (nominal/minimum, Ah): 2.5/2.4
Voltage (nominal, V): 3.3
Internal Impedance (1kHz AC typical, mΩ): 6
HPPC 10 Sec Discharge Pulse Power 50% SOC: 200 W
Recommended Standard Charge Method: 1C to 3.6V CCCV, 45 min
Recommended Fast Charge Method to 80% SOC: 4C to 3.6V CC, 12 min
Maximum Continuous Discharge (A): 70
Maximum Pulse Discharge (10 seconds, A): 120 A
Cycle Life at 10C Discharge, 100% DOD: >1,000 cycles
Operating Temperature: -30°C to 55°C
Storage Temperature: -40°C to 60°C

At this point i can't imagine me using any thing else besides these cells but i bought the other cells out of curiosity and for peace of mind (if i can prove these are better) The fact that these get get used in busses is a good sign.
Click to expand...
Nice find!

Actually I am torn between the disputed Headway 38120HP ... and preferrably the A123 AHR32113 ...

While above ANR26650M1B are more compact and cheaper, they are of significantly lower capacity.

Shooting for a 16s4(5)p configuration. The ANRs would need a lot in parallel to get some capacity and to have the right continuous ampere draw capability. (I am assuming some continuous 360 amps draw in my case... )

EDIT: the more I think about it the more I find the ANR26650 m-1B sexy as well.

a 16s8p would do just fine capacity, discharge rate and price wise ... (compared to the AHR32113 16s4p more or less the same, just different dimensions and mounting)

EDIT 2: just ordered 80 (16x5) AHR32113 for 382 USD SHIPPED 😛
 
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I bought the Headway 38120hp's because they are the "standard" when i comes to low resistance LifePo4 cells.. and this forum will get bombarded by people saying they are the best and to just buy those.. However on you tube i could not find a single example where the 38120hps achieved their claimed ir of "<2.5mohms"

1630354922725.png

Actually they don't even seem to come close to this number.
This video has them them at 5.55milli ohms



If we assume that the ANR26650M1B and A123 AHR32113 get their claimed Ali express capacity and IR's then the below is true..

ANR26650M1B 2450mah <6m ohms
26mm 66mm
AHR32113 4000ah <3m ohms
32 X 145mm

Now before we start it is interesting that AHR32113 are 4000mah batteries because they should be 4400mah im assuming they are listed as 4000mah because they are not in fact new OR are new but have been sitting for many many years.. This maybe true because A123 has not made these cells for a very long time. Pictures also seems to show rusty terminals which backs up the theory that these are actually old.

But in any case the 26650 has better Capacity and lower IR for the same volume of batteries, assuming you have more 26650's in P, The 26650 are mathematically superior when volume is considered. You only need 2 ANR26650M1B for every AHR32113 for more capacity (4ah v 4.9ah) and the same IR.. However 1 AHR32113 has a volume of 4,640 mm V 2 ANR26650M1B which has a volume of 3,432. The one AHR32113 takes up 39% more space than two ANR26650M1B.. so it doesn't take long before you can fit more than 2 ANR26650M1B to one of the AHR32113 meaning you'll be trashing the 32113's on capacity and IR...

The only benefit of the AHR32113 is that they have those nice terminals which make them simple to connect up.

In saying all of this if size doesn't matter then....
 
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yes ... meanwhile I got turned away from the Headway "standard".

I jumped on the ahr32113 wagon on AliExpress since I got the package quite cheap: less than 5 USD (4.8) per battery including shipping to me. The vendor is advertising them as "NEW full new manufacture for A123 ahr..." ... let's see. They do seem to miss the A123 logo (marked as ahr32113ultraB only), are only 4000mAh instead of 4400 ... and the photos are "flawed" as you described.
They do seem to be a knock off of some kind... (but I have AliExpress dispute and 100% cashback option)

Will do some testing when they arrive and report back!

Your volume argument is correct, but I wanted to avoid the hassle of spot welding, stacking layers and connecting them (3D brings complexity). One layer 16x5 in a pre fabbed cell holder, busbars, done. (plus BMS, connectors and SmartCharger...)
 
I have Also ordered some of these "ahr32113" from ALI ... they will turn up eventually and it will be interesting to see what i actually get.. you can never tell with ALi... i ordered just 4 of each for testing..
 
This is my Peltier Controller which i intend to re purpose to control the E-turbo.

I can display up to 8 sensors at this point im intending to display

Pedal position
Engine RPM
12v voltage
50.4 voltage
Charger 1/2
ESC power % out
Boost
MAF voltage ( so i can make sure i dont exceed this )

This will also need to control a bunch of fans.. AND a buck that i will use to charge the 12v battery from my 50.4v pac

 
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